Turkish Delight

That last paragraph and photo really did it for me :) Football is definitely an excellent demonstration of the extent of our multiculturalism.

Very true, we went to Little Italy last Sunday to watch the Spain vs Italy game and it was lot`s of fun. Where in Toronto do the Spanish fans get together?

I was in little Italy for the Spain/Italy game and went The Abbey (College and Rusholme Rd) and almost everyone in the place was cheering for Spain, which really surprised me given it's location.

Mind you, everyone I talked to was more cheering against Italy then for Spain.... (can't speak for everyone else, but my roomie and I were still bitter over the word cup)...but it was a great time!

What I noticed is, Turks were cheering with Turkish and Canadian flags, that is very different than how other teams fans support. When I asked a Turkish Fan "Where is the Turkish Town in the city." He said "Every corner or GTA is a Turkish town for me, we are integrated with the city. I don't need a Turkish Town, I feel home on every street".

Ah, yes, sports-fan nationalism:

"Hooray! A team of athletes from my country beat a team of athletes from another country! This victory in a sports game is proof positive of the general superiority of my country in other areas.

Somehow, this victory is also such that I feel entitled to share in it. I must indicate to passers-by of my involvement by making loud noises, and by the display of my tribal regalia. When they see these flags and hear these noises, other people will then be aware of this important victory, and my deep and meaningful contribution to it."

Makes total sense.

You want to see some scary football nationalism? Check out the Russian fans. I should know, I *am* one.

Great shots!
I also noticed the Turkish flags and Canadian flags together with most cheering turks.

As for Frank above.
This is the worlds most popular sport, sometimes there is no need to over analyze ...

Great article - Simple yet effective. Another reason blogto is becoming my favourite city blog.

Appeal to popularity is a logical fallacy, and does not further your argument, apetimberlake.

I just heard that the TV signal was bad all over the world. That it was the signal from Switzerland that didn't make it anywhere and the second half was half-missing. I was at work so couldn't even watch it, but saw the re-broadcast at night and was able to see the whole thing. Alas, I knew who had won, but it was exciting, nonetheless.

FRANK I think that your sarcastic comment about sports misses the point entirely.

Sports events are a huge part of a thriving culture. It's an extension of warfare of a battle field except in this case it's done in a peaceful and civilized way. People by nature are competitive and cities and countries are brought together when they win at sporting events - just recall when Canada won the gold medal at the Olympics a number of years ago. The problem with Canadians often times is that they dismiss everything as non-important and the result of this is pure mediocrity. World class countries and cities have high standards and care about the details in everything from athletics, art and culture, smart politics and an overall awareness of how things are done. Celebrating a sports victory on a national level equates to a celebration of ones pride in the home country ? it's a tangible show of love and it should not be taken lightly. I think that the worst thing someone can do is not to give a shit about anything.

It disgusts me that people drive their cars around (fumes leaking into my lungs) and honk incessantly. I love the celebration of multiculturalism and comradery that exudes from the fans, but in the end all I can think about it the exhausting noise.

HANS LUCAS I address your post below:

>Sports events are a huge part of a thriving culture.

I agree, a culture can include sports fanaticism. Just because it exists does not mean it is rational, nor that it needs to exist.

>It's an extension of warfare of a battle field except in this case it's done in a peaceful and civilized way.

Nationalism, like other fanaticism, can frequently be expressed in violent, uncivilized ways. For examples, look at any group of nationalist sports fans. Ask if their nationalism is steering them towards violent behavior, or away from it.

>People by nature are competitive and cities and countries are brought together when they win at sporting events - just recall when Canada won the gold medal at the Olympics a number of years ago.

Appealing to the mob is not rational. Mobs of any kind are not rational. It may feel good to be part of a mob, but that feeling has no bearing on the rationality of the mob itself.

>The problem with Canadians often times is that they dismiss everything as non-important and the result of this is pure mediocrity.

I don't know why you are singling out Canadians as the subject of that sentence, nor do I follow the reasoning. How does assessing the importance of an object lead to mediocrity? Mediocre what? Note that I did not identify as a Canadian, nor as any other nationality. If you are attempting a dig at my own nationality, then see my second point above.

>World class countries and cities have high standards and care about the details in everything from athletics, art and culture, smart politics and an overall awareness of how things are done.

I don't care about the same cultural details that you do. That has no bearing on the city or country of my residence. Nor does it bear on yours.

>Celebrating a sports victory on a national level equates to a celebration of ones pride in the home country ? it's a tangible show of love and it should not be taken lightly.

Your country of birth is an accident. The fact that you were born in a country has no bearing on the value of you or that country. And as I suggested in my first post, it is irrational to think that you, your country, or your choice of sports team are related in any rational way. You may enjoy the mob mentality, but I see it as counterproductive.

>I think that the worst thing someone can do is not to give a shit about anything.

You're not thinking hard enough.

I can appreciate the intersection of nationalist enthusiasm and sports -- what hockey-loving Canadian can't?

But I don't appreciate the kind of aggressive, hateful nationalist chauvisnism I ran into last Friday in my neighbourhood, where a caravan of under-30 men in flags draped with Turkish flags cruised up and down the Danforth in Greektown hoking, shouting, and actively antagonizing people on the patios and sucessfully starting a street brawl that ended up drawing 5+ police cruisers to the scene. Watching people smash each other's heads into SUV windows is not my idea of wholesome multicultural Friday afternoon fun.

Urp, I meant "cars draped with Turkish flags".

wow, you must be a very boring person, if you can't appreicate the joy and excitement that people are expressing for any reason. in this case its soccer. No wonder Canada has such a boring and indifferent culture.

the above message was in response to Frank's.

Scatterbrain: That, I can appreciate. But they weren't expressing joy and excitement on account of soccer, they were using soccer as an excuse to stoke historic ethnic rivalries... to violent ends. I guess I'm just too boring to find that laudable.

Ah, I see.

SCATTERBRAIN:

Your nationalism may be so ingrained you can't even see it.

Where did I identify my nationality? What logical connection is there between your classification of me, and my putative nationality?

What if I came from the same country as you?

Would that mean that you would be the same as me, since we're from the same country? Would you then invoke the "True Scotsman" fallacy, by then saying that "real representatives" of your country (like you, I'm presuming) have none of the negative qualities you ascribe to me?

I didn't say that I didn't appreciate joy or excitement for any reason. If you would look at the substance of what I wrote, I said no such thing.

I think you're doing more to prove the theory that nationalism is irrational, Scatterbrain, than not.

Nice title of the story, Joseph. But when you say, "the Euro and World Cup are nothing but an annoying nuance to the city," don't you mean an annoyin nuisance? It's usually the unpleasant, obnoxious fans that wreck it for everyone else.

I can see the disdain for the football fans in Frank's argument and I can hardly blame him.

Perhaps we should have a curfew for celebrating fans in Toronto so that the rest of us can go about our lives without being disrupted by their honking horns and exuberant victory cries?

Why can't soccer fans in Toronto be content with their cheering in sports bars and private homes?

Your nationality was just a wild guess from my part, but I'm still sticking to it, why don't you prove me wrong and tell me you are not really 'Canadian' after all, what is it to be a Canadian anyways?

your comment was sarcastic (isn't sarcasm what pseudo-smart people use to prove to others they are smart?), and it seemed like you only wrote it to feed your own ego, to tell the world,"oh, I'm so smart I can see right through this non-sense, I must be better than them"

You are doing the exact same thing as what you were criticizing by advertising to the world that you are smarter (I doubt it) and therefore, you are better than those who are excited, happy and joyful about their home country's team winning. If you cant see and appreciate the joy in people's faces and are cynical even when it comes to joyful things such as these incidents, then you must be dead inside.

After all, what is wrong with a little joy and happiness that comes with a soccer game? its not a war in which people of one side get killed and people from the other side celebrate, that is what irrational nationalism is. this is hardly any nationalism, I'm not Spanish, but i was celebrating Spain's win over Italy with other people (who I m not even sure were Spanish) so where is the nationalism in that? I mean as long as they are not hurting anyone, what is wrong with using soccer as an excuse to be a little happy and joyful for a day? why should you be so dark and cynical to prove that you are smart?

How should we view non-sporting events that display the same behavior? What about pride weekend? Should that be relegated to bars or private homes? How and why is that different than a few dozen soccer fans at a bar that spill onto the street?

SCATTERBRAIN: You seem to be either deliberately or unconsciously misunderstanding the gist of my posts. I find your arguments flawed, and I'll address each of them in turn.

>Your nationality was just a wild guess from my part, but I'm still sticking to it, why don't you prove me wrong and tell me you are not really 'Canadian' after all..

The burden of proof lies with the person making a claim. I made no claims as to my nationality. Your assumption remains an assumption. The argumentative technique of stating a proposition and then saying "prove me wrong" is illogical.

>...what is it to be a Canadian anyways?

I have no idea what you mean by this. It means one pays income tax in Canada, for starters.

>your comment was sarcastic (isn't sarcasm what pseudo-smart people use to prove to others they are smart?), and it seemed like you only wrote it to feed your own ego, to tell the world,"oh, I'm so smart I can see right through this non-sense, I must be better than them"

Epithets like "pseudo-smart," and suggesting that I'm "feeding my ego" attack the arguer, rather than the argument. I suggest you bend your attention to the substance of my arguments, Scatterbrain, rather than to how they make you feel.

>You are doing the exact same thing as what you were criticizing by advertising to the world that you are smarter (I doubt it) and therefore, you are better than those who are excited, happy and joyful about their home country's team winning.

It's not even remotely the same thing. I do not drive up and down my neighborhood with a large contingent of people who are smarter than you, honking my horn and waving a "I'm smarter than you" flag in everyone's face. I do not bring traffic to a halt with my enthusiastic displays of approval of the activities of a group of people who happen to come from my home nation. You appear to not understand the substance of my argument: nationalism is not rational. For you to condense my original argument into a parody of itself, and then point out the silliness of the parody is illogical.

>If you cant see and appreciate the joy in people's faces and are cynical even when it comes to joyful things such as these incidents, then you must be dead inside.

You're presupposing several things for which you lack evidence: my purported inability to see or appreciate joy, and my purported "deadness."

>After all, what is wrong with a little joy and happiness that comes with a soccer game? its not a war in which people of one side get killed and people from the other side celebrate, that is what irrational nationalism is. this is hardly any nationalism, I'm not Spanish, but i was celebrating Spain's win over Italy with other people (who I m not even sure were Spanish) so where is the nationalism in that? I mean as long as they are not hurting anyone, what is wrong with using soccer as an excuse to be a little happy and joyful for a day? why should you be so dark and cynical to prove that you are smart?

The joy and happiness is fine. The joy and happiness wrapped in a flag and sounded by honking horns is not fine.

It is possible for something to be irrational even if it doesn't kill anybody.

Your choice of supporting one country over another could have been arbitrary, agreed.

However is it also possible you were rooting for Italy to lose? Maybe because a team you previously supported was defeated by Italy in earlier rounds? Perhaps there is some sort of ancient enmity between the country you supported and Italy, so you were hoping they'd fail as punishment for defeating your country's team? I'm not suggesting this is the case, of course--but is it a possibility. That's where the nationalism would be.

Calling me names like "dark" or "cynical" does not advance your argument. It does highlight your failure to address the substance of my argument, though.

Somebody needs to get laid.

Wow, I wasnt trying to win a case in court.
and I didn't care for either of the teams, I was just there to have a good time and laugh. I would've partied with the Italians if they won. my country's team wasn't even in the cup.

just loosen up man, and maybe as Dave suggested get laid and you wont even care about people celebrating after a soccer match lol trust me lol.

The above message was in response to Frank's

Joseph: Pride is a city-sanctioned (officially proclaimed, even) event with permits, etc., rather than a spontaneous victory celebration that is long, loud, or rowdy enough to amount to a disturbance of the peace.

If there were clusters of 5 to 20 cars driving up and down a street with rainbow flags honking and screaming (rather than taking part in an actual event), I think that the same criticisms would apply to them as to celebrating soccer fans.

Frank has made my morning.

Love football/soccer, I don't have a country to cheer on in Euro so I adopted Netherlands for their total football style. Too bad to see them lose to Russia, Van Nistelrooy let me down :(